8 Weight Contenders

How two new rods from Orvis and Winston compare with our all-time favorites from G. Loomis and Sage for the 8 weight title.

by George Anderson

Many of you have read our 8 Weight Shootout from last year and may be wondering how these new 8 weight rods stack up.  We were interested to find out too, especially after hearing about all the hype.  We had already scheduled our annual bonefish trip to Casa Blanca Lodge in late November, so we figured why not take the all-time champs along with the contenders to let them fight it out!

Our shootouts have been controversial to say the least, but we're going to continue to give you our honest opinions.  We have been trying to give our customers honest answers for the past twenty-nine years, so we aren't going to pull any punches now.  We're calling it like we see it.

Over 90% of the anglers that commented on our 5 and 8 Weight Shootouts agreed with our findings and opinions.  E-mails have poured in from avid fly fisherman around the world.  If you have a beef with our findings, our testing procedures, or with anything else you read here, we'd still like to hear from you.  We'll do our best to reply too.  Most guys that are chopping us up on web forums don't have the guts to e-mail us directly, but that's OK.

Remember, these are just our opinions but those of us at the Yellowstone Angler are all highly experienced anglers in both fresh and saltwater.  We love what we do and do what we love - which puts on the water over 100 days a year.  In our write-ups on individual rods, we have a "Counterpoints" sidebar giving you two more opinions on each rod, both from the guys who work here in the shop, my son James Anderson and Doug McKnight.  These guys are great casters and top-notch anglers.  I'll be looking forward to reading their comments also.  I have have encouraged them to speak their mind, and their opinions are totally their own. 

        Four 8-weights battle it out

For this 8-weight Mini-Shootout, we took the two top performing rods from Loomis and Sage and compared them to what we felt were the best new 8-weight rods for 2008.  We apologize to you Scott fans.  We tried to get an S4 for the test, but our local rep couldn't come through with one in time.  Another local fly shop had one, but had broken it on their first outing.  We'll give you an update on the S4 later if we can finally get our hands on one.  After casting the 4 weight version of the S4, we suspect this rod will be much better suited for the salt than the S3S or X2S.   

As in the past we felt that the real "meat" of any shootout like this must deal with rod performance.  For the 8-weights, we have used longer distances than with lighter rods.  Most of the fishing we do with these 8-weights is in that 60-foot range, so this is the most important of all the performance categories.  Accuracy is a big part of performance and you'll be able to read our field test notes on this later in the test.  For these important performance categories the points are doubled.  We felt that the "Fun to Fish / Got to Have" category is also important, especially once we have seen how these rods perform.  We doubled the points here as well.  Perhaps we should have called this category the Lust Factor. 

Like our previous Shootouts, we have organized this one much in the same manner as an automobile shootout you might read in Car and Driver Magazine.  This is the best format we've seen. We'll tally all the points in ten categories, and add them up.  You'll get to see how these four rods rate in a variety of different factors.

If you are thinking about laying out some coin for a new 8-weight rod, we hope this will help you make an informed decision.  And of course we'd love to sell it to you!  The rod sales that our shootouts have generated help us justify all the time we spent bringing them to you.  Plus, if you order a whole outfit - we'll throw in a free line - which will save you anywhere from $60 to $100!  Click here for more info on Our Favorite Outfits.

Why believe us?

Now, that’s a great question. Many of you know that George Anderson has a stellar reputation as a great fly caster and angler in both fresh and saltwater. His back-to-back wins at the Jackson Hole One-Fly in ’89 and ’90 helped to solidify his reputation as one of the top nymph and dry fly fisherman. But you may not know that over the last twenty years, rod manufacturers like Sage, G. Loomis and Tom Morgan Rodsmiths, have asked for George’s help in designing a variety of fly rods. Rods like the Sage LL 389 and LL490. George joined Steve Rajeff of G. Loomis to help design the Loomis StreamDance GLX Presentation series of trout rods as well as fine tune the prototypes for both the StreamDance Presentation and High Line Speed GLX rods. In addition, George helped Tom Morgan with final prototype designs of the highly acclaimed Tom Morgan Rodsmiths graphite rods.

James Anderson and Doug McKnight, who have helped review these rods, are great casters and excellent anglers themselves.  They both have a lot of experience guiding and fishing in both fresh and saltwater environments around the world.  These guys fish often and fish hard.  They spend hours upon hours casting different rods on the lawn beside our shop when the reps bring by the latest in rod designs.  They are good at focusing on and explaining the subtle difference between rods.  I think you will find their comments worthwhile and insightful. 

    Our Testing Procedures

Reels:

For reels , I picked my favorite #8 line reel, a Tibor Everglades.  I've used these reels since their introduction by Ted Juracsik ten years ago now.  They have been superb in every way for both saltwater and freshwater use.  The Everglades is a mid-arbor reel but has enough capacity to hold a WF-8-F line and 200 yards of twenty-pound saltwater Micron backing.  They utilize three ball bearings and have perhaps the best drag ever designed on a saltwater fly reel.  The drag has a wide range of adjustment, a good detent system to keep the adjustment knob from turning too easily, and enough power to stop a taxi-cab.  To my way of thinking, nothing sounds sweeter than a Tibor at full song with a bonefish peeling off all your line and a hundred yards of backing!  Three spring-loaded and recessed ball-bearing detents in the cork drag plate play this sweet tune.  With a nominal amount of care, these reels are totally bulletproof. 

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Lines:

Scientific Anglers and RIO make some of the finest saltwater fly lines I’ve used. Both use stiffer cores and coatings than their freshwater cousins, to cope with the tropical heat that is normally in the 80’s, and even hotter on the deck of a flats skiff in bright sun. Although the RIO powerflex core Bonefish and Tropical Outbound lines shoot better, they also have a problem with tangles in windy conditions, both while casting and when you are clearing line. We have found that the Scientific Anglers Mastery Bonefish Taper lines, with their braided monofilament cores and AST technology are the best all around bonefish lines for most anglers. So this is what we used for our testing and fishing. All four rods here were tested with WF-8-F lines.

Leaders:

The best casting saltwater leaders are hand tied leaders.   We tie our own Bonefish leaders with Mason's Hard Nylon for the butt and mid-sections, and use Seagaur GrandMax Fluorocarbon for the tippet sections.  These Stiff 12 foot leaders with long butt and mid-sections will cast into a hard wind better than any 9 foot knotless leaders.  These leaders (along with our freshwater, Permit, and Tarpon leaders) are our number one re-selling item on our online catalog.  We used our Bonefish leader for all the testing.  For a fly, I cut down some old Enrico Puglisi 2/0 snook patterns, chopping off the bend and barb of the hooks.  The weight ended up being about what you might have with a heavier bonefish fly.

 Setting up multiple rods and reels for  

          our performance testing.

For this mini-shootout, we set up all four 8-weight rods with identical reels and lines so that we could switch back and forth quickly, especially out on the lawn. All lines and leaders were stretched out well before casting. On the water we usually had at least two rods stripped out and ready to go at any time. This gives us the best way to judge the subtle casting qualities of these rods at the various distances.

 Some other observations

Lighter is better – usually!

In this day of extremely high modulus graphite, boron and other new rod building materials, new and stronger resin systems, new graphite scrim and innovative manufacturing techniques, the key to success has been building lighter weight rods that have the same amount of power.   Lighter is better, all else being equal.   We’ve seen some amazing advances in all phases of rod building and just when you think that the current crop of high performance rods has hit perfection, another new material, resin system or unseen innovation allows for improvement.  However; we saw in casting these rods at longer distances, it’s not always the lightest rods that perform the best. Some materials simply perform better than others under high loads that an angler places on the rod throwing 60-100 foot casts. And of course the design of the rod along with the way it flexes from butt to tip determines how well it will cast and feel at various distances.

Beware of the wiggle test

It is always good to pick a rod up in a fly shop, and give it the wiggle test but don’t allow yourself to form an absolute opinion on any rod until you go out and cast it, or better yet compare it to one of your favorite rods. A good example of this was the new Orvis Helios. All the hype and propaganda that Orvis has unleashed got us thinking that this was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Then, when we pulled the Helios out of its case and saw how light the rod was, we were amazed. The action felt pretty good too. However, getting it out on the lawn and comparing it to the best rods was a real eye opener. It was good at close range but the rod felt mushy at medium and long ranges. Ditto for our on- the-water experience at Casa Blanca.

Gripes

What has happened to the hook keeper on all the big rods these days? This just drives me crazy! I’d even like to have a small hook keeper on my tarpon rods. A small, slim hook keeper like the ones that Sage puts on their 9 foot #8-10 Z-Axis rods is perfect. I’m tired of wrapping the leader around the reel seat and hooking the fly in my stripping guide. You can’t convince me that a small hook keeper is ever going to create a problem clearing line…

Great rods are designed by great anglers

One thing that has become very apparent to me over thirty years of working with the world’s best rod designers is that the finest rods in existence have all been designed by fellows who are great anglers.  Head rod designers like Steve Rajeff at G. Loomis, Jerry Siem at Sage, and Tom Morgan (Previous owner and rod designer for R.L. Winston) who has given us the Tom Morgan Rodsmith line are good examples.  These guys and many other great anglers like them have given us the great rods we have today.   Good anglers have the knowledge of what each rod needs to do, and know how to design and tweak the rods to achieve those desired results.

     Categories Explained

Price $  - 10 points available

This is easy – the least expensive rods get the highest points. As the price increases the points drop accordingly. This is why the Loomis GLX rates a 10 and the costly Orvis Helios drops down to a 7.

X-Factor - 10 points available

This is a combination of things, all of which add up to a positive factor of some degree for each rod.  Most rods have a “lifetime warranty” but the companies in this shootout charge somewhat similar amounts for repair and shipping charges, from $20 up to $65 for repair or replacement.  To our way of thinking, G.Loomis trumps them all by getting a brand new rod (not fixing your old rod) to you by reg. UPS for $50 or 2 day air for $65.   No waiting a month or more and you get a brand new rod to boot.  In addition, the Loomis rods use the more expensive but unbreakable nickel-titanium guides as well as unbreakable stripping guides.   The Orvis Helios also uses similar nickel-titanium snake guides.

Craftsmanship - 10 points available

This one is a combination of factors, like the quality of the cork they use in the grip and if the grip is laid up by hand and then turned on a lathe or if pre-shaped cork handles (generally not nearly as good) are used.    Is the reel seat well designed, fully anodized for saltwater use and have a good locking system so that your reel doesn’t fall off while you are battling that twenty-five pound permit of a lifetime? How good are the wraps on the guides, and how good are the coatings over the guides?   Most manufacturers use a one-coat finish that can be applied too heavily, adding weight to the rod and making them look sloppy. The Craftsmanship on all four premium rods in this test was very good to excellent. These are all great looking rods.

Overall Weight - 10 points available 

This is an easy category to judge, but we don’t take the manufacturer’s word for how much these rods weigh.   We’ve found that they often stretch the truth.   We use our own certified Yellowstone Angler digital postage scale- accurate to .00001 oz! To make things simple though, we’ll round it up to a tenth of an ounce. Check our table on statistics to get all this dope. The Orvis Helios blew away all contenders here, giving us a wonderfully light rod. The overall weight is just part of the story however. A more important factor is the swing weight and how these rods perform at various distances.

Swing Weight - 10 points available

You’ve heard of this term if you are a golfer.   The pro shop has a simple scale that measures swing weight – the weight of the head in relationship to the shaft when you waggle the club.    Seeing that all the golf pro shops are closed around here in Montana in the winter, we had to figure out our own way to measure the swing weight of a fly rod.   You’ll see an explanation of how we arrived at these figures on the table with our objective observations. Rods with a lower swing weight are a joy to cast and fish. Rods with a higher swing weight are noticeably less enjoyable and will extract their payment in more arm pump and fatigue by the end of the day. You’ll feel like you’ve just finished a long motocross race rather than having a pleasant day on the flats.

Swing Weight VS Power - 20 points available

Here is the first “performance” category where we double the points.  The winners in this category are rods that feel the lightest in your hand, yet deliver the most usable power.   It’s easy for a heavy rod to develop good power, but it feels like a club! When you pick up one of the top rods in this category, you are thinking, “Wow, I wish I was fishing something like this!”    Of course swing weight vs. power alone doesn’t make a great casting rod.  The way the rod flexes to deliver this power tells the true story. I can tell a lot about how the rod will perform by just holding it in my hand to gauge the swing weight, then flexing it to feel the power and how the rod flexes – what kind of action does it have – medium, medium fast or fast and how much the tip flexes in relation to the butt and mid-section.   
All four of these 8-weight rods have fast actions, but both the Sage and Loomis have more progressively soft tips than the BIIMX or Orvis Helios.

The Orvis Helios also won this category, but the results were close. For example the Loomis was a bit heavier in the hand but had a lot more usable power.

Performance at 35 feet - 20 points available

Most people pick up a fly rod and gauge it’s merit on how far they can throw the line.   But the best 8-Weight rods have good feel and excellent accuracy at closer distances too. The top point getters in this category are rods that are superbly accurate at 35 feet and effortless to cast off the tip of the rod using your wrist to power the tip through the stroke. One of the reasons the Helios took first place at close range was its incredibly light weight and ease of casting in close. At short distance, casting accuracy is also one of the primary factors we use in rating these rods.  Regardless of whether you are fishing in fresh or saltwater, the key to catching lots of fish and big fish is casting accuracy. Rods that are very stiff and perform well at long range usually trade off feel and accuracy at short range. Of course the opposite is true also as we found out with the Orvis Helios. It cast beautifully in close but suffered at medium to longer distances. The best rods that we tested here had soft enough tips to give them excellent feel and accuracy at short range yet plenty of power to throw long.

Performance at 60 feet - 20 points available

Now we’re really getting into the meat of this shootout. The rods that rate highly in this category can really drill them in there at sixty feet, even in a hard breeze. The accuracy of the best rods is amazing. This meant putting five casts out of five into that 36” hoop, time after time. Also, a good 8-Weight rod should be able to do this without a double haul or shooting any line. You need to be able to just rip a good backcast and fire it in there on the forward stroke. Rods with a wimpy butt and mid-section need not apply. On the water this translates into putting a heavy bonefish fly on the money into a 20 knot wind or slamming a wind resistant 2/0 snook fly back way back under those mangrove branches with a tight loop and getting the leader to turn over. The rods in this shootout that can do all this with surprising ease are the Loomis GLX and Sage Xi2. They are both on a plateau above the contenders.

Performance at 100 feet - 20 points available

Most people will say that testing rods at 100 feet is crazy. Heck they don’t make many fly lines that long! Well, that might be right, but if you take a 90-foot bonefish line and add a 15-foot leader, a lot of rods will get it done. With RIO’s new long distance champ, the Tropical Outbound, some of these rods like the Loomis CrossCurrent GLX, and the Sage Xi2 can smoke it out there as far as 120 and even 130 feet.

I can hear it now. People will say you are never fishing at those distances, but I beg to differ on that. I don’t know how many times I’ve been in the situation where our guide had poled the flats skiff so far up on the mud that it wouldn’t go any farther, and those tailing bones were still just over 100 feet away. Getting out of the skiff to wade was hopeless, as you would sink up to your waist in the marl with sand fleas attacking. It was either throw it 100 feet or go fishless. Man, I wish that I had one of those RIO Outbound lines back then! We could have really done some damage to those huge bonefish that were working their way up onto the flat with their backs half out of water…

It’s times like these when you appreciate the explosive reserve power of the Loomis CrossCurrnt GLX. Not only will this rod throw it farther than the rest, it will do it with exceptional accuracy.

Fun to fish/Got to have - 20 points available

In Car and Driver shootouts, this is fun to drive/got to have factor.  We are giving this category 20 points in this shootout.  If the rod looks like a million bucks and casts like it too, then any normal fly fisherman will lust for this rod, even if the price is high. For some it might be just a status symbol. For others, they see how this rod performs in their guide’s hands and feel that it can take them to that next level. Often they are right. Great rods don’t make great casters but they will sure help an average caster get a lot better. For expert anglers that spend a lot of time on the water, it makes sense to go for the best, especially when you’ll use this rod for 10 years or more.

   Field testing the rods at Casa Blanca

After stringing all the rods up, doing some casting near the dock and then fishing them all on our trip, it was soon apparent that these are all pretty good fishing rods. Most people would be happy with any of them but the more we cast and fished the rods, subtle differences became apparent.

One factor that has been borne out in past rod testing is the fact that the only good way to determine the exact differences in the way rods cast is to cast them on the lawn, not the water. This way you can switch back and forth quickly and easily and you don’t normally have any problem with getting the line to shoot perfectly. Luckily we got all this casting on the lawn done here in Livingston before we headed south.

Of course this can be done in a flats skiff if you want to take the time to strip each line out and stretch it, but you cannot just let it sit out there on the water for any length of time like we can on the lawn, while you and pick up another outfit and cast.

Unfortunately at Casa Blanca we couldn’t find a large enough area to do our casting where there was any grass, and stripping the line out on the sand or beach is not a good option. It would have been fun to see if the rods performed any differently in tropical conditions, but I doubt it.

What we were able to do though, is to take the rods with us each day and see how they performed under actual fishing conditions. For the fishing we were doing for bonefish in the 40-75 foot range most of the time, there was no question that the Loomis GLX was the best performing rod, followed closely by the Sage Xi2. If you really had to fight the wind and get the fly on the money, these two would do it better than either the BIIMX or Helios.

Other little things become more apparent when you are fishing the rods. For one, the handle on the BIIMX felt too small in diameter compared to the other rods. On rods like these, you need a good-sized grip to launch long casts to tailing bones or drive a tight loop into a 20-knot wind. Grip it and rip it! Also the very end of the cork extension butt needs more protection to keep it from chunking out. They did this on their 10 weight rod – why not do it for the 8 as well?

Loop control and accuracy are paramount in this kind of fishing and this is where the Loomis and Sage rods shine. Putting the fly right where you need it at 60 feet seems effortless with the GLX. With the Helios or BIIMX it is noticeably more difficult.

One thing I’ve found after many years of testing rods while out fishing is that if I stick with one rod for a hour or more, I’ll adjust my casting style to diffuse whatever initial problems I’m having with a rod. I’ll compensate and change my casting style to get the rod to perform at its best. So after a couple of hours of fishing with any of these rods they all felt pretty darn good. There are no real dogs in this bunch.

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George Anderson’s comments on each rod including the way they performed

  #4 Winston BII MX 9 foot #8, 4-pc

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This new high-performance rod from Winston is certainly a lot better for the saltwater market than the BIIx series. This rod has a lot more usable power, especially in the 8-weight version. Unfortunately, this power doesn’t translate into good short and medium distance feel or accuracy. At shorter distances this rod would feel and perform better for most anglers if they jump up one line size to a #9 line. The small grip is OK for smaller hands, but too short and too slender for the average angler. Good oversize guides, but it would be nice it they gave us the nickel/titanium, unbreakable guides for this price.

Here are my performance notes:

35 foot performance – 18 points out of 20
Very good accuracy but this rod is a little too stiff to challenge either the Sage or Loomis in accuracy at short distance. A #9 line would help dramatically.

60 foot performance – 17 points out of 20
Noticeably harder to cast at this range than either the Sage or Loomis. Again it just felt too stiff and I had to work harder to get the fly close to the target. Feels underlined and that a #9 line would be better.

100 foot performance- 17 points out of 20
Surprisingly, even though this rod was stiff, and felt underlined at shorter distances, it still didn’t perform as well as either the Sage or Loomis at long range, either in its ability to throw long or in terms of accuracy.

#3 Orvis Helios, 9.5 Tip Flex 9'#8, 4 PC

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The rod we ordered in for the test was the “Limited Edition” rod, #207. This appears to be the exact same rod and price as the “normal” edition. We couldn’t find any more information on how large the limited edition was – 500 or 10,000? You have to hand it to Orvis; they are one of the best in the business when it comes to hype and promotion. This rod was definitely the wiggle test king. Without a reel, it is substantially lighter than any other 8-weight rod. They did a great job of cutting weight by getting rid of those big clunky reel seats and giving us something good looking but lightweight. The lack of weight didn’t translate into superb performance however, especially at medium and longer distances where 8-weight rods live most of the time.

Here are my performance notes:

35 foot performance – 20 points out of 20
Very nice to cast at close range. The lightness of this rod really is impressive when casting off the tip of the rod at close range. Not necessarily more accurate than either the Sage or Loomis, but simply a lighter and nicer feel.

60 foot performance – 16 points out of 20
Light, but only slightly more so than the other rods once you put on a big bonefish reel loaded with line and backing. The best way to describe the feel is vague. This rod has nowhere the kind of loop control of either the Sage or Loomis. Accuracy was not as good as the other three rods either at this range. The rod feels mushy and doesn’t deliver a precise feel to the hand.

100 foot performance- 15 points out of 20
Most people are never going to see 100 feet with this rod unless they get a good tailwind. Definitely won’t pop it out there like the other three rods. Again, a lack of feel and power to get the job done. My final note from casting this rod here on the lawn: “It might be light, but that doesn’t mean it can cast!”

       #2 Sage Xi2 9 foot #8, 4-pc

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The Xi2 is Sage’s premier saltwater fly rod.  Here's a few things I like about this rod:  The chrome plated oversize guides and oversize tip top will help you clear your line quickly. The double locking ring reel seat has a rubber o-ring to keep it tight. The full wells cork grip is just the right size (for me) and the shape / quality of cork is the best you’ll find on any production rod. It is also one of the best looking rods on the market, dressed up in a deep sapphire blue coat of epoxy with black wraps and silver trim. This rod performs extremely well at all distances and is a real pleasure to fish. I’ve found that these rods are also tough as nails and will take a lot of abuse. Sage’s warranty service has gotten faster over the past few years and is now one of the best.

Here are my performance notes:

35 foot performance – 19 points out of 20
This rod feels a little heavier than the GLX, but accuracy is excellent and on par with the GLX. Nice loop control when casting off the tip of the rod.

60 foot performance – 19 points out of 20
Well balanced with the #8 line, and a very smooth rod to cast. Can’t quite match the GLX for loop control, line speed or accuracy. Again, the Xi2 feels just a shade heavier in my hand than the GLX.

100 foot performance- 19 points out of 20
Excellent loop control and accuracy. This rod will throw long with the best of them. A definite step up from the BIIMX and Helios.

#1 Loomis CrossCurrent GLX 9'#8, 4pc

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Still our 8-Weight Champ! When you need power, this rod has it in spades. There is simply nothing out there to challenge it in the performance department. It is a little stiff for short distance casting, but with it’s progressively soft tip, it does a remarkable job at producing excellent accuracy, even at short range. Get out to 60 feet or more and this is a sweet casting rod. You can seemingly put the fly right where you want it every time with beautiful tight loops.

This rod utilizes very light and unbreakable nickel-titanium snake guides as well as unbreakable recoil stripping guides. These have proven to be bulletproof. My only gripe is that the stainless steel recoil stripping guides sing a weird harmonic song when you put a big bend in the rod, with the line under a lot of pressure. Fortunately, this doesn’t happen often.

About the only other kick I have on this rod is handle design. I’d rather have a standard full wells grip like the Sage. I just think it is more comfortable for most anglers. A small quibble though for a rod that performs this well.

The CrossCurrent GLX rods are a lovely dark olive color with contrasting maroon wraps. The reel seats have an interesting and good-looking design with a larger diameter barrel than most and a very secure lock up system. The seats are anodized in a complimentary olive color. All the Loomis rods have a slip-over ferrule design and have proven to be extremely strong despite their small diameter tips. This is perhaps the toughest rod to break on the market, and if you do break it you can get it replaced in days using Loomis’ Expeditor service.

The one thing that sets these rods apart from others is their explosive power on tap. The harder you power the rod in the casting stroke the quicker and more forcefully it reacts. Casting long distances is effortless. With very strong butt and mid sections these rods have unsurpassed power for playing large fish.

Here are my performance notes:

35 foot performance – 19 points out of 20
Excellent accuracy and feel. I could put the fly within 10-12 inches of dead center nearly every cast! This rod casts beautifully off the tip of the rod.

60 foot performance – 20 points out of 20
Smooth and effortless. Nothing matches the performance of this rod at medium length fishing distances. It’s easy to cast beautiful tight loops and the accuracy at 60 feet was definitely superior to all other rods.

100 foot performance- 20 points out of 20
Drills it out there with a lot of velocity and accuracy. Unreal power and the ability to form extremely tight loops that give excellent accuracy, even at 100 feet. Nothing beats this long.

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